Rear hatch defroster tab separation repair

[GRL]

The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.

I seem to have three options:

-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that

-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)

-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on


My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?



- GRL

[Martin Riddle]

Some conductive epoxies are very good. But they probably will not handle the current, ( Its around 30amps for the rear defroster)

You can try adhesive copper foil, it will make an electrical bond, plus give you the needed surface area. You can solder to the foil
then place the foil onto your defrost grid.

The best solution if replacement. Get a quote from safelight or some other glass place. Qoute on OEM and aftermarket windows (OEM
perfered).

Cheers

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

[GRL]

The conductive epoxies I've seen are sold for this purpose. The current
should not be a problem as long as the epoxy resistance is low. After all,
power dissipation is i-squared R.Low resistance means little heat to damage
the epoxy.

Where would one get this adhesive copper film? If the adhesive is not
conductive, then it would still not work, right? So is it really any better
than conductive epoxy?

- GRL

Post by Martin Riddle
Some conductive epoxies are very good. But they probably will not handle
the current, ( Its around 30amps for the rear defroster)
You can try adhesive copper foil, it will make an electrical bond, plus
give you the needed surface area. You can solder to the foil
then place the foil onto your defrost grid.
The best solution if replacement. Get a quote from safelight or some other
glass place. Qoute on OEM and aftermarket windows (OEM
perfered).
Cheers

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

[Sarge]

GRL wrote: "The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000
Yukon XL came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality
construction at work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate
with it from the glass.
I seem to have three options:
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?"


Try looking in google:

Here is two how to articles:

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/aa112302a_3.htm
http://www.ifsja.org/tech/body/defroster_repair.shtml


Here is a link to a kit:

http://www.frostfighter.com/


Sarge

[Steve W.]

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

I've soldered a couple of these back on with no problem. First you need
to clean the area on the glass real good. Then lightly tin it I use a
tinning paste for that so it tins fast and lessens the heat applied to
the glass. Then I clean up the tab and tin it. Then I put enough solder
on it to flow out when it is heated again. Then hold the tab on the
glass and heat it up till the solder flows and bonds. Let it cool and
reinstall the wire.



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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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[G***@chartermi.net]

Local glass shop guy tried soldering the tab on today. He got the tab
to stick to the conductor strip, but when he tried to put the wire lead
on it pulled the strip off the glass. So he heated and removed the tab.

I called GM customer assistance for help with a replacement window
today. I am at under 30,000 miles, so we'll see what they can do.

This is all just such a pain.

- GRL

[G***@chartermi.net]

You don't mean that you solder directly to the glass, right? You mean
the conductive grid?

- GRL

[n***@sny.der.on.ca]

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

I have done both many times with good results.
A product that generally works pretty well is something called "solder
it" silver bearing solder paste. It is a low melting point eutectic
solder - melts at 430F. The tube I have is from Unival Corp,
Pleasantville New York.

[Robert]

Sorry didn't read all the posts so this may have been suggested. I know at
Canadian Tire stores in Canada they sell a defroster repair kit. Looks like
liquid copper to me. Possibly just use some adhesive (like they use for
rear view mirrors) and use the copper liquid to make a good connection.
Robert

Post by n***@sny.der.on.ca

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

I have done both many times with good results.
A product that generally works pretty well is something called "solder
it" silver bearing solder paste. It is a low melting point eutectic
solder - melts at 430F. The tube I have is from Unival Corp,
Pleasantville New York.

[d***@excite.com]

DON'T use the crappy tire product. I did and it was a waste of time
and $$$. See my other post for the proper solution. (BTW... the repair
was done 2 winters ago and it's still holding fine)

Dave

[Paul of Dayon]

I fixed one on my T-Bird years ago. I just bought the epoxy kit at AutoZone
and followed directions... It lasted 10 years, last I knew...

PoD

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

[Dark1]

Post by Paul of Dayon
I fixed one on my T-Bird years ago. I just bought the epoxy kit at
AutoZone and followed directions... It lasted 10 years, last I knew...
PoD

odd, when I asked the people at autozone about a product for that purpose
(same thing on my tbird), they said all they had was the kits to fill in the
"wires"..nothing to adhere the tabs..
do you remember the name of the product?

[Paul of Dayon]

It's been years ago - I found it in the glue aisle. It may have been
someplace other than AZ but I usually go there first. My next stop is NAPA,
if they don't have it it's not made. The shop manual listed a factory kit
but I know I didn't go to the dealer for it. I expect it was made by
Loctite or someone similar.

PoD

Post by Dark1

Post by Paul of Dayon
I fixed one on my T-Bird years ago. I just bought the epoxy kit at
AutoZone and followed directions... It lasted 10 years, last I knew...
PoD

odd, when I asked the people at autozone about a product for that purpose
(same thing on my tbird), they said all they had was the kits to fill in
the "wires"..nothing to adhere the tabs..
do you remember the name of the product?

[G***@chartermi.net]

I tried the AutoZone kit (Permatex, I think) and it did not work worth
squat. The epoxy never polymerized. I think the hardener was bad. Very
disappointing. Maybe it had sat on the store's display too long.

- GRL

Post by Paul of Dayon
I fixed one on my T-Bird years ago. I just bought the epoxy kit at AutoZone
and followed directions... It lasted 10 years, last I knew...
PoD

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

[d***@excite.com]

Take the truck to an auto glass shop to get it repaired. My wife's car
had the same problem and the glass shop "glued" it back together. It's
UGLY, but it now works perfectly.

Dave.

[Grayfox]

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what I
had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used rear
window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third options
and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

It's interesting how quick you are to blame GM build-quality for this
problem. These tabs normally come off because the dumb-ass owner or his
spouse or kids are careless and break them when putting in cargo!!! You
break it - buy a new one cheapskate! If you can't afford to service your
vehicle, buy something you can afford to maintain, maybe a Kia or a Hyundai!

[GRL]

I blame GM because the reason the tab fell off is that it was poorly
attached by GM or whoever they bought the window from. If you look at where
the tab is located, you will see that it is near impossible for a person to
damage the tab. It is up high and at the extreme outer part of the window
well away from potential cargo damage. The only one who has ever driven the
truck is me and I never got near the tab with anything...until it fell off.

I will refrain from answering you in kind, since you clearly speak from
total ignorance.

-GRL

.

Post by Grayfox

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what
I had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used
rear window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third
options and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

It's interesting how quick you are to blame GM build-quality for this
problem. These tabs normally come off because the dumb-ass owner or his
spouse or kids are careless and break them when putting in cargo!!! You
break it - buy a new one cheapskate! If you can't afford to service your
vehicle, buy something you can afford to maintain, maybe a Kia or a Hyundai!

[n***@sny.der.on.ca]

Post by GRL
I blame GM because the reason the tab fell off is that it was poorly
attached by GM or whoever they bought the window from. If you look at where
the tab is located, you will see that it is near impossible for a person to
damage the tab. It is up high and at the extreme outer part of the window
well away from potential cargo damage. The only one who has ever driven the
truck is me and I never got near the tab with anything...until it fell off.
I will refrain from answering you in kind, since you clearly speak from
total ignorance.
-GRL

In 35 years as a mechanic - and that goes back to before the inception
of heated rear window glass, I have NEVER seen a tab fail due to poor
quality of the glass/grid. I HAVE seen problems with the workmanship
of the soldering on of the tab, but in that case, the tab falls off
without damaging the substrate. There is only ONE thing that will
remove the tab and substrate together, and that is PHYSICAL DAMAGE.
That can be caused by cleaning the window - or too much unsupported
cable hanging out and SEVERE vibration.

"Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's already made up"

Post by GRL
.

Post by Grayfox

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what
I had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used
rear window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third
options and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

It's interesting how quick you are to blame GM build-quality for this
problem. These tabs normally come off because the dumb-ass owner or his
spouse or kids are careless and break them when putting in cargo!!! You
break it - buy a new one cheapskate! If you can't afford to service your
vehicle, buy something you can afford to maintain, maybe a Kia or a Hyundai!

[GRL]

In this case, the tab fell of leaving all but a tiny part of the substrate.
Interestingly, there was little sign of solder on the substrate or the tab.
Looking at the other tab, still attached, there is a very noticeable bead of
solder between the substrate and tab. Not so on the one that fell off.

It fell off in the middle of last winter. The truck had not transported
anything larger than bags of groceries all winter and it had worked at the
start of winter. It is only driven on city streets in Michigan. (Not
California-smooth, but not pot-hole city either.) I have NEVER had a tab
come off before this as far back as my hard riding '73 Capri. Noticed it was
broken when I heard the flexible wire with tab attached rattling against the
rear glass and/or roof pillar.

I think it was just a poor solder joint that eventually weakened and fell
off.

Have you ever had luck fixing this with conducting epoxy? I'm tempted to
give it a try with the FrostFighter product. Nothing to lose.

- GRL

Post by n***@sny.der.on.ca

Post by GRL
I blame GM because the reason the tab fell off is that it was poorly
attached by GM or whoever they bought the window from. If you look at where
the tab is located, you will see that it is near impossible for a person to
damage the tab. It is up high and at the extreme outer part of the window
well away from potential cargo damage. The only one who has ever driven the
truck is me and I never got near the tab with anything...until it fell off.
I will refrain from answering you in kind, since you clearly speak from
total ignorance.
-GRL

In 35 years as a mechanic - and that goes back to before the inception
of heated rear window glass, I have NEVER seen a tab fail due to poor
quality of the glass/grid. I HAVE seen problems with the workmanship
of the soldering on of the tab, but in that case, the tab falls off
without damaging the substrate. There is only ONE thing that will
remove the tab and substrate together, and that is PHYSICAL DAMAGE.
That can be caused by cleaning the window - or too much unsupported
cable hanging out and SEVERE vibration.
"Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's already made up"

Post by GRL
.

Post by Grayfox

Post by GRL
The contact tab on one side of the rear hatch window on my 2000 Yukon XL
came off last winter at 28,000 miles. (More GMC quality construction at
work.) The tab took a little of the conducting substrate with it from the
glass.
-replace the entire rear glass for $700 plus labor (you can imagine what
I had to say about GM when I got that price) or try to find a good used
rear window for half that
-have a glass shop try to solder the tab back on (I understand that this
risks shattering the glass if it is over-heated)
-use a conductive epoxy to put the tab back on
My question is, has anyone successfully tried the second and third
options and has anyone tried them without success?
- GRL

It's interesting how quick you are to blame GM build-quality for this
problem. These tabs normally come off because the dumb-ass owner or his
spouse or kids are careless and break them when putting in cargo!!! You
break it - buy a new one cheapskate! If you can't afford to service your
vehicle, buy something you can afford to maintain, maybe a Kia or a Hyundai!

[Shoe Salesman]

Post by GRL
In this case, the tab fell of leaving all but a tiny part of the
substrate. Interestingly, there was little sign of solder on the substrate
or the tab. Looking at the other tab, still attached, there is a very
noticeable bead of solder between the substrate and tab. Not so on the one
that fell off.
It fell off in the middle of last winter. The truck had not transported
anything larger than bags of groceries all winter and it had worked at the
start of winter. It is only driven on city streets in Michigan. (Not
California-smooth, but not pot-hole city either.) I have NEVER had a tab
come off before this as far back as my hard riding '73 Capri. Noticed it
was broken when I heard the flexible wire with tab attached rattling
against the rear glass and/or roof pillar.
I think it was just a poor solder joint that eventually weakened and fell
off.
Have you ever had luck fixing this with conducting epoxy? I'm tempted to
give it a try with the FrostFighter product. Nothing to lose.
- GRL

I tryed it once and it didn't work. But, there are ALOT of variables on this
problem so like you said, nothing to loose.

[451CTDS]

If it explodes during soldering [ unlikely ] file an insurance claim
seems to me that you must re-solder to have enough for the conductive
paste to stick to, I doubt the paste alone will hold the wire.

Consider using a small piece of bare wire, or bus wire and a small
soldering iron with electronic grade solder, once the wire's back on,
the conductive paste should work.

[GLitwinski]

GM has, to their credit, offered to pay 1/2 of the ~$750 replacement cost. I
get the impression that they would have sprung for all of it if the service
manager at the local GM dealer had been willing to tell them that he was
sure it was a case of solder separation and that there was nothing that the
owner could have done to prevent it and nothing that the owner could have
done to exacerbate it. The guy was unwilling to say anything other than that
the tab was off. He looked at the window about 5 seconds - I am NOT
exaggerating. The dealership would not have to contribute to the repair in
any case.

I must say that I am impressed with GM making some attempt to stand behind
their product, even in the tough financial situation they are in. I have had
a series of things break on my Yukon XL that should not have broken and that
makes it tough for me to want to buy GM again, but the attitude of GM
customer assistance does go some distance to balance the bad experiences.
God, I hope GM manages to turn themselves around financially and improve
their reliability up to near-Toyota levels.

- GRL

Post by Shoe Salesman

Post by GRL
In this case, the tab fell of leaving all but a tiny part of the
substrate. Interestingly, there was little sign of solder on the
substrate or the tab. Looking at the other tab, still attached, there is
a very noticeable bead of solder between the substrate and tab. Not so on
the one that fell off.
It fell off in the middle of last winter. The truck had not transported
anything larger than bags of groceries all winter and it had worked at
the start of winter. It is only driven on city streets in Michigan. (Not
California-smooth, but not pot-hole city either.) I have NEVER had a tab
come off before this as far back as my hard riding '73 Capri. Noticed it
was broken when I heard the flexible wire with tab attached rattling
against the rear glass and/or roof pillar.
I think it was just a poor solder joint that eventually weakened and fell
off.
Have you ever had luck fixing this with conducting epoxy? I'm tempted to
give it a try with the FrostFighter product. Nothing to lose.
- GRL

I tryed it once and it didn't work. But, there are ALOT of variables on
this problem so like you said, nothing to loose.

[StingRay]

Post by GLitwinski
snip
God, I hope GM manages to turn themselves around financially and improve
their reliability up to near-Toyota levels.
- GRL

What an odd comment GRL. I was just went back and read the J.D. Power report
of June 29/05 entitled "Vehicle Dependability Study" and they state :
"General Motors models earn eight segment awards and Ford Motor Company
models receive five segments awards -a record for both GM and Ford in VDS.
Toyota Motor Corporation models receive four awards." So what are you
basing your comment on? Just curious. Here's the link if you want to read it
for yourself:

http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089

[BobD]

Post by StingRay

Post by GLitwinski
snip
God, I hope GM manages to turn themselves around financially and improve
their reliability up to near-Toyota levels.
- GRL

What an odd comment GRL. I was just went back and read the J.D. Power
report of June 29/05 entitled "Vehicle Dependability Study" and they state
: "General Motors models earn eight segment awards and Ford Motor Company
models receive five segments awards -a record for both GM and Ford in VDS.
Toyota Motor Corporation models receive four awards." So what are you
basing your comment on? Just curious. Here's the link if you want to read
http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089

That's true. Toyotas are no longer built to "near-Toyota levels". Similarly,
I remember reading that Toyota's formerly great initial quality ratings were
due to much greater levels of inspection during the manufacturing process
(very labor-intensive). Unfortunately, to keep prices from climbing too
high, the quality checks were decreased down to industry-standard levels,
and the results were not surprising. Now the effects are trickling down to
the long-term quality ratings.

[GLitwinski]

Nothing odd about the comment. Overall Toyota quality is well above GM's.
What that report talks about in terms of awards is individual models, not an
entire line. Big difference. Also, the highest ranked GM model, the Prism,
is a Toyota Corolla sold by Chevy. That tells a story itself.

My problems have been with a 2000 Yukon XL. I doubt that GM won any awards
for that model.

Now I am no GM-basher. I own GM stock and no Toyota stock. I desperately
want GM to succeed, to build desirable cars with Toyota-level quality, but
they do not now do that (there are a few exceptions) and I am not going to
delude myself that they do. To my mind GM needs to build cars with the
driving dynamics of a BMW and the build quality of Toyota. Do that, GM, and
you will start adding market share and make money hand over fist.

- GRL

Post by StingRay

Post by GLitwinski
snip
God, I hope GM manages to turn themselves around financially and improve
their reliability up to near-Toyota levels.
- GRL

What an odd comment GRL. I was just went back and read the J.D. Power
report of June 29/05 entitled "Vehicle Dependability Study" and they state
: "General Motors models earn eight segment awards and Ford Motor Company
models receive five segments awards -a record for both GM and Ford in VDS.
Toyota Motor Corporation models receive four awards." So what are you
basing your comment on? Just curious. Here's the link if you want to read
http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089

[d***@XReXXRearX.usenet.us.com]

Post by GLitwinski
done to exacerbate it. The guy was unwilling to say anything other than
that the tab was off. He looked at the window about 5 seconds - I am NOT
exaggerating. The dealership would not have to contribute to the repair
in any case.

A visit to another dealer?
And why is this in the Ford group?

---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

[P.E.]

Post by Grayfox
It's interesting how quick you are to blame GM build-quality for this
problem. These tabs normally come off because the dumb-ass owner or his
spouse or kids are careless and break them when putting in cargo!!! You
break it - buy a new one cheapskate! If you can't afford to service your
vehicle, buy something you can afford to maintain, maybe a Kia or a Hyundai!

Sorry Grayfox, it is the quality. I've had 2 Tahoe's, and I'm now on my 4th
Escalade. Guess what? All 6 have had a tab come off. 4 were reparable, one
was covered under warranty, and I'm on the phone with GM now trying to get the
last one taken care of. The problem is, is that when it comes off and takes
all the adhesive with it, you can't repair it. To say this isn't a quality
issue, just look it up online at how many people deal with this same issue.
You would think after 15 years they would figure something out. Love the
vehicles, but hate the rear window.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by P.E.

Post by Grayfox
It's interesting how quick you are to blame GM build-quality for this
problem. These tabs normally come off because the dumb-ass owner or
his spouse or kids are careless and break them when putting in
cargo!!! You break it - buy a new one cheapskate! If you can't afford
to service your vehicle, buy something you can afford to maintain,
maybe a Kia or a Hyundai!

Sorry Grayfox, it is the quality. I've had 2 Tahoe's, and I'm now on my 4th
Escalade. Guess what? All 6 have had a tab come off.

Grayfox did make one sensible comment, "buy a Hyundai"
I've had it with GM quality. After my LeSabre fell apart I bought a
Hyundai. Then another. Then another.

Every GM car I've had has been bck to the dealer for warranty repairs,
but I've yet to need anything done on my Hyundais.