Requim for Detroit

[Björn Helgason]

One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
Albany Street is still on the market for $1.

Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
closed in 2009 alone.

But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
is far more visceral.

"Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
and shot."

Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
police will leave you alone.

What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.

But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.

[Canuck57]

On 13/03/2010 3:14 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
> more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
> Albany Street is still on the market for $1.
>
> Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
> of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
> adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
> closed in 2009 alone.
>
> But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
> is far more visceral.
>
> "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
> and shot."
>
> Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
> prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
> police will leave you alone.
>
> What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
> frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
> pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
> civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
> lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
> workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.
>
> But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
> The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
> inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
> resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
> destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
> willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
> American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
> treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
> apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.

So they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Björn Helgason]

On 13 mar, 13:33, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 13/03/2010 3:14 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
> > more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
> > Albany Street is still on the market for $1.
>
> > Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
> > of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
> > adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
> > closed in 2009 alone.
>
> > But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
> > is far more visceral.
>
> > "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
> > and shot."
>
> > Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
> > prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
> > police will leave you alone.
>
> > What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
> > frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
> > pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
> > civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
> > lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
> > workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.
>
> > But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
> > The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
> > inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
> > resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
> > destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
> > willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
> > American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
> > treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
> > apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.
>
> So they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
>
> --
> --------------
> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

What is and where is the golden egg?

Something rotten here - maybe it was misplaced somewhere.

As far as I know the goose is still trying to breathe and produce eggs
even if they are not golden anymore if they ever were.

[Canuck57]

On 13/03/2010 9:20 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> On 13 mar, 13:33, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On 13/03/2010 3:14 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
>>> more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
>>> Albany Street is still on the market for $1.
>>
>>> Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
>>> of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
>>> adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
>>> closed in 2009 alone.
>>
>>> But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
>>> is far more visceral.
>>
>>> "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
>>> and shot."
>>
>>> Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
>>> prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
>>> police will leave you alone.
>>
>>> What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
>>> frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
>>> pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
>>> civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
>>> lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
>>> workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.
>>
>>> But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
>>> The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
>>> inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
>>> resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
>>> destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
>>> willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
>>> American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
>>> treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
>>> apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.
>>
>> So they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
>>
>> --
>> --------------
>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> What is and where is the golden egg?
>
> Something rotten here - maybe it was misplaced somewhere.
>
> As far as I know the goose is still trying to breathe and produce eggs
> even if they are not golden anymore if they ever were.

On expensive intensive life support with a grim long term prognosis.

Fact of the mater is people have less to spend on autos, which means
even though GM can't make them profitable today, they will not be
profitable for some time to come as pricing pressures increase. And
sooner or later out of control governemnt debt for GM and other leaches
are going to see government pull back as they are broke. And GM has
asub-zero credit rating.

Bad mix for GM futures.
--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Björn Helgason]

On 13 mar, 19:59, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 13/03/2010 9:20 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 13 mar, 13:33, Canuck57<***@nospam.com>  wrote:
> >> On 13/03/2010 3:14 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
> >>> One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
> >>> more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
> >>> Albany Street is still on the market for $1.
>
> >>> Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
> >>> of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
> >>> adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
> >>> closed in 2009 alone.
>
> >>> But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
> >>> is far more visceral.
>
> >>> "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
> >>> and shot."
>
> >>> Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
> >>> prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
> >>> police will leave you alone.
>
> >>> What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
> >>> frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
> >>> pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
> >>> civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
> >>> lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
> >>> workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.
>
> >>> But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
> >>> The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
> >>> inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
> >>> resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
> >>> destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
> >>> willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
> >>> American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
> >>> treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
> >>> apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.
>
> >> So they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
>
> >> --
> >> --------------
> >> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> > What is and where is the golden egg?
>
> > Something rotten here - maybe it was misplaced somewhere.
>
> > As far as I know the goose is still trying to breathe and produce eggs
> > even if they are not golden anymore if they ever were.
>
> On expensive intensive life support with a grim long term prognosis.
>
> Fact of the mater is people have less to spend on autos, which means
> even though GM can't make them profitable today, they will not be
> profitable for some time to come as pricing pressures increase.  And
> sooner or later out of control governemnt debt for GM and other leaches
> are going to see government pull back as they are broke.  And GM has
> asub-zero credit rating.
>
> Bad mix for GM futures.
> --
> --------------
> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

Government Motors will be cut down into pieces and killed off in time
of trouble.

[Canuck57]

On 13/03/2010 1:33 PM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> On 13 mar, 19:59, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On 13/03/2010 9:20 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 13 mar, 13:33, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> On 13/03/2010 3:14 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>>>> One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
>>>>> more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
>>>>> Albany Street is still on the market for $1.
>>
>>>>> Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
>>>>> of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
>>>>> adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
>>>>> closed in 2009 alone.
>>
>>>>> But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
>>>>> is far more visceral.
>>
>>>>> "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
>>>>> and shot."
>>
>>>>> Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
>>>>> prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
>>>>> police will leave you alone.
>>
>>>>> What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
>>>>> frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
>>>>> pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
>>>>> civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
>>>>> lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
>>>>> workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.
>>
>>>>> But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
>>>>> The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
>>>>> inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
>>>>> resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
>>>>> destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
>>>>> willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
>>>>> American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
>>>>> treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
>>>>> apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.
>>
>>>> So they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
>>
>>>> --
>>>> --------------
>>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>>
>>> What is and where is the golden egg?
>>
>>> Something rotten here - maybe it was misplaced somewhere.
>>
>>> As far as I know the goose is still trying to breathe and produce eggs
>>> even if they are not golden anymore if they ever were.
>>
>> On expensive intensive life support with a grim long term prognosis.
>>
>> Fact of the mater is people have less to spend on autos, which means
>> even though GM can't make them profitable today, they will not be
>> profitable for some time to come as pricing pressures increase. And
>> sooner or later out of control governemnt debt for GM and other leaches
>> are going to see government pull back as they are broke. And GM has
>> asub-zero credit rating.
>>
>> Bad mix for GM futures.
>> --
>> --------------
>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> Government Motors will be cut down into pieces and killed off in time
> of trouble.

No doubt, government would hatchet GM if it helped prop up government
statism. And cash is getting in short supply, they can't create it fast
enough, too many sucking on the hind. Sooner or later someone is going
to shake them off.

--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Björn Helgason]

On 14 mar, 00:42, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 13/03/2010 1:33 PM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 13 mar, 19:59, Canuck57<***@nospam.com>  wrote:
> >> On 13/03/2010 9:20 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
> >>> On 13 mar, 13:33, Canuck57<***@nospam.com>    wrote:
> >>>> On 13/03/2010 3:14 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
> >>>>> One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
> >>>>> more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
> >>>>> Albany Street is still on the market for $1.
>
> >>>>> Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
> >>>>> of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
> >>>>> adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
> >>>>> closed in 2009 alone.
>
> >>>>> But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
> >>>>> is far more visceral.
>
> >>>>> "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
> >>>>> and shot."
>
> >>>>> Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
> >>>>> prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
> >>>>> police will leave you alone.
>
> >>>>> What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
> >>>>> frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
> >>>>> pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
> >>>>> civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
> >>>>> lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
> >>>>> workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.
>
> >>>>> But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
> >>>>> The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
> >>>>> inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
> >>>>> resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
> >>>>> destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
> >>>>> willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
> >>>>> American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
> >>>>> treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
> >>>>> apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.
>
> >>>> So they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> --------------
> >>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> >>> What is and where is the golden egg?
>
> >>> Something rotten here - maybe it was misplaced somewhere.
>
> >>> As far as I know the goose is still trying to breathe and produce eggs
> >>> even if they are not golden anymore if they ever were.
>
> >> On expensive intensive life support with a grim long term prognosis.
>
> >> Fact of the mater is people have less to spend on autos, which means
> >> even though GM can't make them profitable today, they will not be
> >> profitable for some time to come as pricing pressures increase.  And
> >> sooner or later out of control governemnt debt for GM and other leaches
> >> are going to see government pull back as they are broke.  And GM has
> >> asub-zero credit rating.
>
> >> Bad mix for GM futures.
> >> --
> >> --------------
> >> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> > Government Motors will be cut down into pieces and killed off in time
> > of trouble.
>
> No doubt, government would hatchet GM if it helped prop up government
> statism.  And cash is getting in short supply, they can't create it fast
> enough, too many sucking on the hind.  Sooner or later someone is going
> to shake them off.
>
> --
> --------------
> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

The film Requim for Detroit was on BBC tonight.
Unbelievable how fast such a big and thriving city has fallen back to
the basics back to petty crime, capital crime, drugs, burning houses,
self destruction segregation and back to africa

[Canuck57]

On 14/03/2010 1:42 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> On 14 mar, 00:42, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On 13/03/2010 1:33 PM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 13 mar, 19:59, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> On 13/03/2010 9:20 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>>>> On 13 mar, 13:33, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/03/2010 3:14 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
>>>>>>> more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
>>>>>>> Albany Street is still on the market for $1.
>>
>>>>>>> Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
>>>>>>> of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
>>>>>>> adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
>>>>>>> closed in 2009 alone.
>>
>>>>>>> But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
>>>>>>> is far more visceral.
>>
>>>>>>> "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
>>>>>>> and shot."
>>
>>>>>>> Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
>>>>>>> prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
>>>>>>> police will leave you alone.
>>
>>>>>>> What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
>>>>>>> frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
>>>>>>> pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
>>>>>>> civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
>>>>>>> lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
>>>>>>> workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.
>>
>>>>>>> But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
>>>>>>> The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
>>>>>>> inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
>>>>>>> resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
>>>>>>> destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
>>>>>>> willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
>>>>>>> American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
>>>>>>> treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
>>>>>>> apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.
>>
>>>>>> So they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>>
>>>>> What is and where is the golden egg?
>>
>>>>> Something rotten here - maybe it was misplaced somewhere.
>>
>>>>> As far as I know the goose is still trying to breathe and produce eggs
>>>>> even if they are not golden anymore if they ever were.
>>
>>>> On expensive intensive life support with a grim long term prognosis.
>>
>>>> Fact of the mater is people have less to spend on autos, which means
>>>> even though GM can't make them profitable today, they will not be
>>>> profitable for some time to come as pricing pressures increase. And
>>>> sooner or later out of control governemnt debt for GM and other leaches
>>>> are going to see government pull back as they are broke. And GM has
>>>> asub-zero credit rating.
>>
>>>> Bad mix for GM futures.
>>>> --
>>>> --------------
>>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>>
>>> Government Motors will be cut down into pieces and killed off in time
>>> of trouble.
>>
>> No doubt, government would hatchet GM if it helped prop up government
>> statism. And cash is getting in short supply, they can't create it fast
>> enough, too many sucking on the hind. Sooner or later someone is going
>> to shake them off.
>>
>> --
>> --------------
>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> The film Requim for Detroit was on BBC tonight.
> Unbelievable how fast such a big and thriving city has fallen back to
> the basics back to petty crime, capital crime, drugs, burning houses,
> self destruction segregation and back to africa

Certainly not the place I would move to. But remember they did it to
themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uAfyiqNUGw

--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Björn Helgason]

On 14 mar, 16:58, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 14/03/2010 1:42 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 14 mar, 00:42, Canuck57<***@nospam.com>  wrote:
> >> On 13/03/2010 1:33 PM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
> >>> On 13 mar, 19:59, Canuck57<***@nospam.com>    wrote:
> >>>> On 13/03/2010 9:20 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
> >>>>> On 13 mar, 13:33, Canuck57<***@nospam.com>      wrote:
> >>>>>> On 13/03/2010 3:14 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
> >>>>>>> more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
> >>>>>>> Albany Street is still on the market for $1.
>
> >>>>>>> Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
> >>>>>>> of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
> >>>>>>> adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
> >>>>>>> closed in 2009 alone.
>
> >>>>>>> But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
> >>>>>>> is far more visceral.
>
> >>>>>>> "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
> >>>>>>> and shot."
>
> >>>>>>> Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
> >>>>>>> prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
> >>>>>>> police will leave you alone.
>
> >>>>>>> What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
> >>>>>>> frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
> >>>>>>> pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
> >>>>>>> civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
> >>>>>>> lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
> >>>>>>> workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.
>
> >>>>>>> But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
> >>>>>>> The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
> >>>>>>> inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
> >>>>>>> resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
> >>>>>>> destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
> >>>>>>> willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
> >>>>>>> American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
> >>>>>>> treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
> >>>>>>> apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.
>
> >>>>>> So they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> --------------
> >>>>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> >>>>> What is and where is the golden egg?
>
> >>>>> Something rotten here - maybe it was misplaced somewhere.
>
> >>>>> As far as I know the goose is still trying to breathe and produce eggs
> >>>>> even if they are not golden anymore if they ever were.
>
> >>>> On expensive intensive life support with a grim long term prognosis.
>
> >>>> Fact of the mater is people have less to spend on autos, which means
> >>>> even though GM can't make them profitable today, they will not be
> >>>> profitable for some time to come as pricing pressures increase.  And
> >>>> sooner or later out of control governemnt debt for GM and other leaches
> >>>> are going to see government pull back as they are broke.  And GM has
> >>>> asub-zero credit rating.
>
> >>>> Bad mix for GM futures.
> >>>> --
> >>>> --------------
> >>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> >>> Government Motors will be cut down into pieces and killed off in time
> >>> of trouble.
>
> >> No doubt, government would hatchet GM if it helped prop up government
> >> statism.  And cash is getting in short supply, they can't create it fast
> >> enough, too many sucking on the hind.  Sooner or later someone is going
> >> to shake them off.
>
> >> --
> >> --------------
> >> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> > The film Requim for Detroit was on BBC tonight.
> > Unbelievable how fast such a big and thriving city has fallen back to
> > the basics back to petty crime, capital crime, drugs, burning houses,
> > self destruction  segregation and back to africa
>
> Certainly not the place I would move to.  But remember they did it to
> themselves.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uAfyiqNUGw
>
> --
> --------------
> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

That is a very good question.
Did they do it to themselves?
They were lured by the good live from the south.

[Canuck57]

On 14/03/2010 11:56 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> On 14 mar, 16:58, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On 14/03/2010 1:42 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 14 mar, 00:42, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> On 13/03/2010 1:33 PM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>>>> On 13 mar, 19:59, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/03/2010 9:20 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On 13 mar, 13:33, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 13/03/2010 3:14 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> One in five houses now stand empty. Property prices have fallen 80% or
>>>>>>>>> more in Detroit over the last three years. A three-bedroom house on
>>>>>>>>> Albany Street is still on the market for $1.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Unemployment has reached 30%; 33.8% of Detroit's population and 48.5%
>>>>>>>>> of its children live below the poverty line. Forty-seven per cent of
>>>>>>>>> adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate; 29 Detroit schools
>>>>>>>>> closed in 2009 alone.
>>
>>>>>>>>> But statistics tell only one part of the story. The reality of Detroit
>>>>>>>>> is far more visceral.
>>
>>>>>>>>> "Never get out of the car in that area – people have been car-jacked
>>>>>>>>> and shot."
>>
>>>>>>>>> Law and order has completely broken down in the inner city, drugs and
>>>>>>>>> prostitution are rampant and unless you actually murder someone the
>>>>>>>>> police will leave you alone.
>>
>>>>>>>>> What makes all this so hard to understand is that Detroit was the
>>>>>>>>> frontier city of the American Dream – not just the automobile, but
>>>>>>>>> pretty much everything we associate with 20th-century western
>>>>>>>>> civilisation came from there. Mass production; assembly lines; stop
>>>>>>>>> lights; freeways; shopping malls; suburbs and an emerging middle-class
>>>>>>>>> workforce: all these things were pioneered in Detroit.
>>
>>>>>>>>> But the seeds of the Motor City's downfall were sown a long time ago.
>>>>>>>>> The blind belief of the Big Three in the automobile as an
>>>>>>>>> inexhaustible golden goose, guaranteeing endless streams of cash,
>>>>>>>>> resulted in the city becoming reliant on a single industry. Its
>>>>>>>>> destiny fatally entwined with that of the car. The greed-fuelled
>>>>>>>>> willingness of the auto barons to siphon up black workers from the
>>>>>>>>> American south to man their Metropolis-like assembly lines and then
>>>>>>>>> treat them as subhuman citizens, running the city along virtually
>>>>>>>>> apartheid lines, created a racial tinderbox.
>>
>>>>>>>> So they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>>
>>>>>>> What is and where is the golden egg?
>>
>>>>>>> Something rotten here - maybe it was misplaced somewhere.
>>
>>>>>>> As far as I know the goose is still trying to breathe and produce eggs
>>>>>>> even if they are not golden anymore if they ever were.
>>
>>>>>> On expensive intensive life support with a grim long term prognosis.
>>
>>>>>> Fact of the mater is people have less to spend on autos, which means
>>>>>> even though GM can't make them profitable today, they will not be
>>>>>> profitable for some time to come as pricing pressures increase. And
>>>>>> sooner or later out of control governemnt debt for GM and other leaches
>>>>>> are going to see government pull back as they are broke. And GM has
>>>>>> asub-zero credit rating.
>>
>>>>>> Bad mix for GM futures.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>>
>>>>> Government Motors will be cut down into pieces and killed off in time
>>>>> of trouble.
>>
>>>> No doubt, government would hatchet GM if it helped prop up government
>>>> statism. And cash is getting in short supply, they can't create it fast
>>>> enough, too many sucking on the hind. Sooner or later someone is going
>>>> to shake them off.
>>
>>>> --
>>>> --------------
>>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>>
>>> The film Requim for Detroit was on BBC tonight.
>>> Unbelievable how fast such a big and thriving city has fallen back to
>>> the basics back to petty crime, capital crime, drugs, burning houses,
>>> self destruction segregation and back to africa
>>
>> Certainly not the place I would move to. But remember they did it to
>> themselves.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uAfyiqNUGw
>>
>> --
>> --------------
>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> That is a very good question.
> Did they do it to themselves?
> They were lured by the good live from the south.

Unquestionably they did it to themselves. Auto management executive and
board, unions, politicians all had a hand into turning GM & Chrysler
into needy greed slugs. As no one wanted to face reality for over two
decades. Like stunned sheep infront of a train and ignored it. They all
had a part. Then they squeal like wounded pigs when reality caught up
to their bullshit and came right up and bit them on the ass.

Now we pay for it. But that is why the economy sucks, too much
leaching, debt, dysfunction and hangers on the hind.

--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Bill Putney]

Canuck57 wrote:
> On 14/03/2010 1:42 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:

>> The film Requim for Detroit was on BBC tonight.
>> Unbelievable how fast such a big and thriving city has fallen back to
>> the basics back to petty crime, capital crime, drugs, burning houses,
>> self destruction segregation and back to africa

> Certainly not the place I would move to. But remember they did it to
> themselves.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uAfyiqNUGw


Hah! How cool - almost half a million dollars per North American GM job
saved. That doesn't even meet the road-to-bankruptcy Keynesian "dollar
multiplication" factors criteria.

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

[Canuck57]

On 14/03/2010 3:36 PM, Bill Putney wrote:
> Canuck57 wrote:
>> On 14/03/2010 1:42 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
>>> The film Requim for Detroit was on BBC tonight.
>>> Unbelievable how fast such a big and thriving city has fallen back to
>>> the basics back to petty crime, capital crime, drugs, burning houses,
>>> self destruction segregation and back to africa
>
>> Certainly not the place I would move to. But remember they did it to
>> themselves.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uAfyiqNUGw
>
>
> Hah! How cool - almost half a million dollars per North American GM job
> saved. That doesn't even meet the road-to-bankruptcy Keynesian "dollar
> multiplication" factors criteria.

Keynesian was a fraud. Just an excuse for governmetn to let common
sense go to the wind.

Never seen anyone debt-spend their way out of debt to prosperity. Seen
it dig deeper holes though.


--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Bill Putney]

Canuck57 wrote:
> On 14/03/2010 3:36 PM, Bill Putney wrote:
>> Canuck57 wrote:
>>> On 14/03/2010 1:42 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>>> The film Requim for Detroit was on BBC tonight.
>>>> Unbelievable how fast such a big and thriving city has fallen back to
>>>> the basics back to petty crime, capital crime, drugs, burning houses,
>>>> self destruction segregation and back to africa
>>
>>> Certainly not the place I would move to. But remember they did it to
>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uAfyiqNUGw
>>
>>
>> Hah! How cool - almost half a million dollars per North American GM job
>> saved. That doesn't even meet the road-to-bankruptcy Keynesian "dollar
>> multiplication" factors criteria.
>
> Keynesian was a fraud. Just an excuse for governmetn to let common
> sense go to the wind.
>
> Never seen anyone debt-spend their way out of debt to prosperity. Seen
> it dig deeper holes though.

You mean Keynes.

You may have missed my point, which was they often justify dumping more
money to save a job than the job is worth by saying that every dollar
spent means 7 or 8 (or whatever their b.s. number of the month is)
dollars spent in the economy - IOW - they say you can justify saving a
$20k job by borrowing $150 to save it.

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

[Canuck57]

On 14/03/2010 6:21 PM, Bill Putney wrote:
> Canuck57 wrote:
>> On 14/03/2010 3:36 PM, Bill Putney wrote:
>>> Canuck57 wrote:
>>>> On 14/03/2010 1:42 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The film Requim for Detroit was on BBC tonight.
>>>>> Unbelievable how fast such a big and thriving city has fallen back to
>>>>> the basics back to petty crime, capital crime, drugs, burning houses,
>>>>> self destruction segregation and back to africa
>>>
>>>> Certainly not the place I would move to. But remember they did it to
>>>> themselves.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uAfyiqNUGw
>>>
>>>
>>> Hah! How cool - almost half a million dollars per North American GM job
>>> saved. That doesn't even meet the road-to-bankruptcy Keynesian "dollar
>>> multiplication" factors criteria.
>>
>> Keynesian was a fraud. Just an excuse for governmetn to let common
>> sense go to the wind.
>>
>> Never seen anyone debt-spend their way out of debt to prosperity. Seen
>> it dig deeper holes though.
>
> You mean Keynes.

Yep, but close enough. The theory of his is seriously flawed in several
repects. The big one, it didn't factor in so much government debt and
the ability to pay for that debt.

> You may have missed my point, which was they often justify dumping more
> money to save a job than the job is worth by saying that every dollar
> spent means 7 or 8 (or whatever their b.s. number of the month is)
> dollars spent in the economy - IOW - they say you can justify saving a
> $20k job by borrowing $150 to save it.

If you were 1000% for sure, sure enough to litterally put your liver,
kidneys and heart on the bet that it would permanently solve the problem
forever... I might be swayed. But it isn't realistic and the ROI isn't
there in the near term or long term.

But the fact is GMAC for example has already have 4 bailouts. GM
directly has $50 billion plus, and no one knows for sure how much in
loan write offs and the spin offs like Delco, others suppliers and the
like have cost but few disagree that the total has gone well past $100
billion for auto alone. Banks, even more.

What hasn't been measured is the loss of jobs BECAUSE of the bailouts.
Governments can redistribute wealth but they can't create it. They can
take a few thousand from every worker/family in the land and bailout GM
for example. But then those same people spend less, even spend less on
GM! They will be spending less in their own communities that would
employ people there. Banks want lower debts before taxes go up as not
to be burned so they reduce credit lines, which is prudent.

Then there is the fear factor. Why invest in USA or Canada? We don't
know who is expected to pay for the 30% increase in debt and bailout
costs! And that is signifigant enough to hold off and wait any business
decision big or small. In fact, prudent to wait.

Then the preditory part. If people ar buying less cars, that means less
labor. While you subsidise GM at the 2009 rate of $60,000 per auto they
did sell, other companies lay off more people as they didn't ge the
sale. Yep, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Ford and others couldn't compete with
subsidised GM auto so they laid people off. So the efficiency of saving
"GM" has serious short comings.

The rational fact is bailouts are bad and inefficient and fix nothing.
The problems remain and nothing but more debt to show for it. Your
great grandchildren will be paying interest on the GM debt in 100 years.

Bailouts are corruption, easy to write them off and continue. A sunk
cost of waste to mega proportions, but you can't 1/2 cut out cancer and
expect to live.
--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Björn Helgason]

Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.

Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.

For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.

All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
Detroit.

All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
never became an issue.

Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.

Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
different.

[Björn Helgason]

On 15 mar, 02:51, Björn Helgason <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>
> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>
> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>
> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment  was similar to
> Detroit.
>
> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
> never became an issue.
>
> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>
> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
> different.

Strange as it may seem then comparing Berlin and Detroit facing
similar challenge is like black and white.

It would be closer to reality to compare the demise of Detroit to
Rumania or Bulgaria.

The whole social system of Detroit is bankrupt with schools closing
and criminality rising.

That is better described by these former communist states who have not
yet faced reality.

Who would have believed this to be happening in the US?

[Canuck57]

On 14/03/2010 9:21 PM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> On 15 mar, 02:51, Björn Helgason<***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>>
>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>>
>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>>
>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
>> Detroit.
>>
>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
>> never became an issue.
>>
>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>>
>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
>> different.
>
> Strange as it may seem then comparing Berlin and Detroit facing
> similar challenge is like black and white.
>
> It would be closer to reality to compare the demise of Detroit to
> Rumania or Bulgaria.
>
> The whole social system of Detroit is bankrupt with schools closing
> and criminality rising.
>
> That is better described by these former communist states who have not
> yet faced reality.
>
> Who would have believed this to be happening in the US?

Might be a good title for a movie, "Escape from Detroit".

I can actually. Too many union bums in the area. Often arrogant,
bully, pig headed, self important piss ants. Now the bubble has broken.

I figure a basic auto worker is worth $12/hr and basic benefits for a 40
hour week. Any more, and there should be a surtax on the extra until
the debts are paid in full, including the bond holders. As basically
most of them are uneducated bums. Ok, if they are a robotics
journeyman, $20/hr.

Lets face it, the unions job is to rattle up the discontent, pump up the
egos, we deserve more attitude. Keeps justifing their dues. Then
extort the companies to pay for it.

--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Bill Putney]

Björn Helgason wrote:
> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>
> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>
> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>
> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
> Detroit.
>
> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
> never became an issue.
>
> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>
> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
> different.

Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten up
with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
huge factor in their economic demise.

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

[Björn Helgason]

On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney <***@kinez.net> wrote:
> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
> > Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>
> > Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>
> > For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>
> > All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment  was similar to
> > Detroit.
>
> > All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
> > unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
> > never became an issue.
>
> > Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>
> > Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
> > than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
> > different.
>
> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
> freedom.  The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten up
> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
> huge factor in their economic demise.
>
> --
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> address with the letter 'x')

What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
is doing something about the situation.
The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
of unemployment is high there.
The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
you do not need to do anything.
They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.

In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
The problems keep increasing.

Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.

So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
is clearly the difference in policies by the government.

Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
everything and then they were abandoned.

[Canuck57]

On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net> wrote:
>> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
>>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>>
>>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>>
>>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>>
>>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
>>> Detroit.
>>
>>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
>>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
>>> never became an issue.
>>
>>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>>
>>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
>>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
>>> different.
>>
>> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
>> freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten up
>> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
>> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
>> huge factor in their economic demise.
>>
>> --
>> Bill Putney
>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>> address with the letter 'x')
>
> What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
> is doing something about the situation.
> The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
> of unemployment is high there.
> The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
> unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
> same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
> you do not need to do anything.
> They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>
> In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
> and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
> The problems keep increasing.
>
> Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
> get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>
> So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
> is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>
> Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
> everything and then they were abandoned.

It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
issues. But it does start with a good edication.

Germany is also in financial trouble. Don't kid yourself.
--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Dave]

"Canuck57" <***@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JrAnn.113349$***@newsfe09.iad...
> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>> On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net> wrote:
>>> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
>>>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>>>
>>>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>>>
>>>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>>>
>>>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
>>>> Detroit.
>>>
>>>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
>>>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
>>>> never became an issue.
>>>
>>>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>>>
>>>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
>>>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
>>>> different.
>>>
>>> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
>>> freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten up
>>> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
>>> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
>>> huge factor in their economic demise.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bill Putney
>>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>> address with the letter 'x')
>>
>> What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
>> is doing something about the situation.
>> The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
>> of unemployment is high there.
>> The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
>> unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
>> same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
>> you do not need to do anything.
>> They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>>
>> In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
>> and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
>> The problems keep increasing.
>>
>> Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
>> get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>>
>> So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
>> is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>>
>> Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
>> everything and then they were abandoned.
>
> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
> issues. But it does start with a good edication.
>

You mean like your's? BWWWAAAHAHAHA...you illiterate little turd.

[Björn Helgason]

On 16 mar, 00:40, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net>  wrote:
> >> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
> >>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>
> >>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>
> >>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>
> >>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment  was similar to
> >>> Detroit.
>
> >>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
> >>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
> >>> never became an issue.
>
> >>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>
> >>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
> >>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
> >>> different.
>
> >> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
> >> freedom.  The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten up
> >> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
> >> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
> >> huge factor in their economic demise.
>
> >> --
> >> Bill Putney
> >> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> >> address with the letter 'x')
>
> > What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
> > is doing something about the situation.
> > The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
> > of unemployment is high there.
> > The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
> > unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
> > same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
> > you do not need to do anything.
> > They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>
> > In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
> > and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
> > The problems keep increasing.
>
> > Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
> > get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>
> > So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
> > is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>
> > Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
> > everything and then they were abandoned.
>
> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
> issues.  But it does start with a good edication.
>
> Germany is also in financial trouble.  Don't kid yourself.
> --
> --------------
> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

It sure was a heavy burden to take over the ruins after the communism
and stupid management.
Interestingly enough the same can be said of the failed communism and
stupidity of both East Germany and GM.
The difference is how the failure is treated.
For 20 years Germany is bringing up a new generation of people and is
getting back on its feed.
In Detroit the schools are closed and what is growing up is an area
know mostly for burnt down house, derelict ruins and drugrelated
generations of uneducated slums.
The communists left a less bad legacy than GM.

[Tom]

"Björn Helgason" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4c5a4a89-3ab2-47ea-8c58-***@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> On 16 mar, 00:40, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net> wrote:
>> >> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
>> >>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>>
>> >>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>>
>> >>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>>
>> >>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
>> >>> Detroit.
>>
>> >>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of
>> >>> this
>> >>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
>> >>> never became an issue.
>>
>> >>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>>
>> >>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
>> >>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
>> >>> different.
>>
>> >> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
>> >> freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten
>> >> up
>> >> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
>> >> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
>> >> huge factor in their economic demise.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Bill Putney
>> >> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>> >> address with the letter 'x')
>>
>> > What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
>> > is doing something about the situation.
>> > The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
>> > of unemployment is high there.
>> > The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
>> > unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
>> > same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
>> > you do not need to do anything.
>> > They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>>
>> > In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
>> > and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
>> > The problems keep increasing.
>>
>> > Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
>> > get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>>
>> > So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
>> > is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>>
>> > Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
>> > everything and then they were abandoned.
>>
>> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
>> issues. But it does start with a good edication.
>>
>> Germany is also in financial trouble. Don't kid yourself.
>> --
>> --------------
>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> It sure was a heavy burden to take over the ruins after the communism
> and stupid management.
> Interestingly enough the same can be said of the failed communism and
> stupidity of both East Germany and GM.
> The difference is how the failure is treated.
> For 20 years Germany is bringing up a new generation of people and is
> getting back on its feed.
> In Detroit the schools are closed and what is growing up is an area
> know mostly for burnt down house, derelict ruins and drugrelated
> generations of uneducated slums.
> The communists left a less bad legacy than GM.

now that's a stretch GM brought down detroit , and the communists are better
than GM. you either live in the wrong
country or your world is awful dim.

[Canuck57]

On 16/03/2010 9:28 AM, Tom wrote:
>
>
> "Björn Helgason" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4c5a4a89-3ab2-47ea-8c58-***@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
>> On 16 mar, 00:40, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net> wrote:
>>> >> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
>>> >>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>>>
>>> >>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>>>
>>> >>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>>>
>>> >>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
>>> >>> Detroit.
>>>
>>> >>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of
>>> >>> this
>>> >>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
>>> >>> never became an issue.
>>>
>>> >>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>>>
>>> >>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger
>>> issue
>>> >>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
>>> >>> different.
>>>
>>> >> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
>>> >> freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally
>>> eaten >> up
>>> >> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly
>>> the
>>> >> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
>>> >> huge factor in their economic demise.
>>>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Bill Putney
>>> >> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>> >> address with the letter 'x')
>>>
>>> > What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
>>> > is doing something about the situation.
>>> > The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
>>> > of unemployment is high there.
>>> > The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
>>> > unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
>>> > same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
>>> > you do not need to do anything.
>>> > They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>>>
>>> > In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
>>> > and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
>>> > The problems keep increasing.
>>>
>>> > Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
>>> > get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>>>
>>> > So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
>>> > is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>>>
>>> > Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
>>> > everything and then they were abandoned.
>>>
>>> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
>>> issues. But it does start with a good edication.
>>>
>>> Germany is also in financial trouble. Don't kid yourself.
>>> --
>>> --------------
>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>>
>> It sure was a heavy burden to take over the ruins after the communism
>> and stupid management.
>> Interestingly enough the same can be said of the failed communism and
>> stupidity of both East Germany and GM.
>> The difference is how the failure is treated.
>> For 20 years Germany is bringing up a new generation of people and is
>> getting back on its feed.
>> In Detroit the schools are closed and what is growing up is an area
>> know mostly for burnt down house, derelict ruins and drugrelated
>> generations of uneducated slums.
>> The communists left a less bad legacy than GM.
>
> now that's a stretch GM brought down detroit , and the communists are
> better than GM. you either live in the wrong
> country or your world is awful dim.

Yes it is a stretch, but not a stretch to say the same mentality and
culture that brought GM down also brought Detroit down. Entitlement,
poor work ethics, greed, corruption, unions, liberal debt, lack of
mutual respect and low to non-existant morals. A cancer actually.

--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Björn Helgason]

On 17 mar, 00:00, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 16/03/2010 9:28 AM, Tom wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Björn Helgason" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:4c5a4a89-3ab2-47ea-8c58-***@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> >> On 16 mar, 00:40, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
> >>> > On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net> wrote:
> >>> >> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
> >>> >>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>
> >>> >>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>
> >>> >>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>
> >>> >>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
> >>> >>> Detroit.
>
> >>> >>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of
> >>> >>> this
> >>> >>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
> >>> >>> never became an issue.
>
> >>> >>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>
> >>> >>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger
> >>> issue
> >>> >>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
> >>> >>> different.
>
> >>> >> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
> >>> >> freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally
> >>> eaten >> up
> >>> >> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly
> >>> the
> >>> >> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
> >>> >> huge factor in their economic demise.
>
> >>> >> --
> >>> >> Bill Putney
> >>> >> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> >>> >> address with the letter 'x')
>
> >>> > What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
> >>> > is doing something about the situation.
> >>> > The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
> >>> > of unemployment is high there.
> >>> > The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
> >>> > unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
> >>> > same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
> >>> > you do not need to do anything.
> >>> > They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>
> >>> > In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
> >>> > and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
> >>> > The problems keep increasing.
>
> >>> > Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
> >>> > get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>
> >>> > So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
> >>> > is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>
> >>> > Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
> >>> > everything and then they were abandoned.
>
> >>> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
> >>> issues. But it does start with a good edication.
>
> >>> Germany is also in financial trouble. Don't kid yourself.
> >>> --
> >>> --------------
> >>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> >> It sure was a heavy burden to take over the ruins after the communism
> >> and stupid management.
> >> Interestingly enough the same can be said of the failed communism and
> >> stupidity of both East Germany and GM.
> >> The difference is how the failure is treated.
> >> For 20 years Germany is bringing up a new generation of people and is
> >> getting back on its feed.
> >> In Detroit the schools are closed and what is growing up is an area
> >> know mostly for burnt down house, derelict ruins and drugrelated
> >> generations of uneducated slums.
> >> The communists left a less bad legacy than GM.
>
> > now that's a stretch GM brought down detroit , and the communists are
> > better than GM. you either live in the wrong
> > country or your world is awful dim.
>
> Yes it is a stretch, but not a stretch to say the same mentality and
> culture that brought GM down also brought Detroit down.  Entitlement,
> poor work ethics, greed, corruption, unions, liberal debt, lack of
> mutual respect and low to non-existant morals.  A cancer actually.
>
> --
> --------------
> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

They brought Detroit down but only moved GM

[Canuck57]

On 16/03/2010 7:10 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> On 16 mar, 00:40, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net> wrote:
>>>> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
>>>>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>>
>>>>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>>
>>>>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>>
>>>>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
>>>>> Detroit.
>>
>>>>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
>>>>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
>>>>> never became an issue.
>>
>>>>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>>
>>>>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
>>>>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
>>>>> different.
>>
>>>> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
>>>> freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten up
>>>> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
>>>> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
>>>> huge factor in their economic demise.
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bill Putney
>>>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>>> address with the letter 'x')
>>
>>> What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
>>> is doing something about the situation.
>>> The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
>>> of unemployment is high there.
>>> The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
>>> unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
>>> same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
>>> you do not need to do anything.
>>> They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>>
>>> In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
>>> and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
>>> The problems keep increasing.
>>
>>> Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
>>> get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>>
>>> So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
>>> is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>>
>>> Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
>>> everything and then they were abandoned.
>>
>> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
>> issues. But it does start with a good edication.
>>
>> Germany is also in financial trouble. Don't kid yourself.
>> --
>> --------------
>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> It sure was a heavy burden to take over the ruins after the communism
> and stupid management.
> Interestingly enough the same can be said of the failed communism and
> stupidity of both East Germany and GM.
> The difference is how the failure is treated.
> For 20 years Germany is bringing up a new generation of people and is
> getting back on its feed.
> In Detroit the schools are closed and what is growing up is an area
> know mostly for burnt down house, derelict ruins and drugrelated
> generations of uneducated slums.
> The communists left a less bad legacy than GM.

Much less worse. It would be easier to upscale east germany than to
deal with Detroit. Nobody wants to do what it takes to fix Detriot.

--
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Björn Helgason]

On 16 mar, 23:53, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 16/03/2010 7:10 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 16 mar, 00:40, Canuck57<***@nospam.com>  wrote:
> >> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
> >>> On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net>    wrote:
> >>>> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
> >>>>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>
> >>>>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>
> >>>>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>
> >>>>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment  was similar to
> >>>>> Detroit.
>
> >>>>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
> >>>>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
> >>>>> never became an issue.
>
> >>>>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>
> >>>>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
> >>>>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
> >>>>> different.
>
> >>>> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
> >>>> freedom.  The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten up
> >>>> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
> >>>> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
> >>>> huge factor in their economic demise.
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Bill Putney
> >>>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> >>>> address with the letter 'x')
>
> >>> What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
> >>> is doing something about the situation.
> >>> The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
> >>> of unemployment is high there.
> >>> The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
> >>> unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
> >>> same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
> >>> you do not need to do anything.
> >>> They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>
> >>> In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
> >>> and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
> >>> The problems keep increasing.
>
> >>> Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
> >>> get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>
> >>> So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
> >>> is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>
> >>> Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
> >>> everything and then they were abandoned.
>
> >> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
> >> issues.  But it does start with a good edication.
>
> >> Germany is also in financial trouble.  Don't kid yourself.
> >> --
> >> --------------
> >> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> > It sure was a heavy burden to take over the ruins after the communism
> > and stupid management.
> > Interestingly enough the same can be said of the failed communism and
> > stupidity of both East Germany and GM.
> > The difference is how the failure is treated.
> > For 20 years Germany is bringing up a new generation of people and is
> > getting back on its feed.
> > In Detroit the schools are closed and what is growing up is an area
> > know mostly for burnt down house, derelict ruins and drugrelated
> > generations of uneducated slums.
> > The communists left a less bad legacy than GM.
>
> Much less worse.  It would be easier to upscale east germany than to
> deal with Detroit.  Nobody wants to do what it takes to fix Detriot.
>
> --
> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

The government is supposed to make sure everyone goes to school and
provide healthcare not be running a company that only lines the pocket
of the rich.
The so called communist states did exactly the same so Detroit is an
example of same corruption and negligence as any other dictatorship
like Zimbabwe and friends.

[Canuck57]

On 18/03/2010 4:39 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> On 16 mar, 23:53, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On 16/03/2010 7:10 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 16 mar, 00:40, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>>>> On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
>>>>>>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>>
>>>>>>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>>
>>>>>>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>>
>>>>>>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
>>>>>>> Detroit.
>>
>>>>>>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
>>>>>>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
>>>>>>> never became an issue.
>>
>>>>>>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>>
>>>>>>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
>>>>>>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
>>>>>>> different.
>>
>>>>>> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
>>>>>> freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten up
>>>>>> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
>>>>>> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
>>>>>> huge factor in their economic demise.
>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Bill Putney
>>>>>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>>>>> address with the letter 'x')
>>
>>>>> What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
>>>>> is doing something about the situation.
>>>>> The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
>>>>> of unemployment is high there.
>>>>> The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
>>>>> unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
>>>>> same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
>>>>> you do not need to do anything.
>>>>> They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>>
>>>>> In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
>>>>> and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
>>>>> The problems keep increasing.
>>
>>>>> Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
>>>>> get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>>
>>>>> So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
>>>>> is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>>
>>>>> Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
>>>>> everything and then they were abandoned.
>>
>>>> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
>>>> issues. But it does start with a good edication.
>>
>>>> Germany is also in financial trouble. Don't kid yourself.
>>>> --
>>>> --------------
>>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>>
>>> It sure was a heavy burden to take over the ruins after the communism
>>> and stupid management.
>>> Interestingly enough the same can be said of the failed communism and
>>> stupidity of both East Germany and GM.
>>> The difference is how the failure is treated.
>>> For 20 years Germany is bringing up a new generation of people and is
>>> getting back on its feed.
>>> In Detroit the schools are closed and what is growing up is an area
>>> know mostly for burnt down house, derelict ruins and drugrelated
>>> generations of uneducated slums.
>>> The communists left a less bad legacy than GM.
>>
>> Much less worse. It would be easier to upscale east germany than to
>> deal with Detroit. Nobody wants to do what it takes to fix Detriot.
>>
>> --
>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> The government is supposed to make sure everyone goes to school and
> provide healthcare not be running a company that only lines the pocket
> of the rich.

Hey, if you are not needed or doing something for someone else, you are
useless. Worth is zip.

> The so called communist states did exactly the same so Detroit is an
> example of same corruption and negligence as any other dictatorship
> like Zimbabwe and friends.

No doubt, GM was corrupt, right to the core. Should have been let to
die. Now we have a blood sucking zombie.

--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Bill Putney]

Björn Helgason wrote:

> The government is supposed to...provide healthcare...

Oh please no! Barf!

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

[Canuck57]

On 15/03/2010 4:15 AM, Bill Putney wrote:
> Björn Helgason wrote:
>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>>
>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>>
>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>>
>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
>> Detroit.
>>
>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of this
>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
>> never became an issue.
>>
>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>>
>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
>> different.
>
> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
> freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten up
> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
> huge factor in their economic demise.

By workers, management and the board of directors. All just hen pecked
GM to death while producing crap.

--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Bill Putney]

Canuck57 wrote:
> On 14/03/2010 6:21 PM, Bill Putney wrote:
>> Canuck57 wrote:
>>> On 14/03/2010 3:36 PM, Bill Putney wrote:

>>>> Hah! How cool - almost half a million dollars per North American GM job
>>>> saved. That doesn't even meet the road-to-bankruptcy Keynesian "dollar
>>>> multiplication" factors criteria.
>>>
>>> Keynesian was a fraud. Just an excuse for governmetn to let common
>>> sense go to the wind.
>>>
>>> Never seen anyone debt-spend their way out of debt to prosperity. Seen
>>> it dig deeper holes though.
>>
>> You mean Keynes.
>
> Yep, but close enough. The theory of his is seriously flawed in several
> repects. The big one, it didn't factor in so much government debt and
> the ability to pay for that debt.
>
>> You may have missed my point, which was they often justify dumping more
>> money to save a job than the job is worth by saying that every dollar
>> spent means 7 or 8 (or whatever their b.s. number of the month is)
>> dollars spent in the economy - IOW - they say you can justify saving a
>> $20k job by borrowing $150 to save it.
>
> If you were 1000% for sure, sure enough to litterally put your liver,
> kidneys and heart on the bet that it would permanently solve the problem
> forever... I might be swayed. But it isn't realistic and the ROI isn't
> there in the near term or long term.

I assume you mean the generic "you" there and not me personally. But to
be sure, I don't drink Keynesian kool-aid - I agree with you that it is
fraudulent philosophy but is unfortunately how many of our political
class and the voting public think because it's presented in public
forums and in our schools as if it were a law of nature whether they
know what it's called or not.

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

[Canuck57]

On 15/03/2010 4:10 AM, Bill Putney wrote:
> Canuck57 wrote:
>> On 14/03/2010 6:21 PM, Bill Putney wrote:
>>> Canuck57 wrote:
>>>> On 14/03/2010 3:36 PM, Bill Putney wrote:
>
>>>>> Hah! How cool - almost half a million dollars per North American GM
>>>>> job
>>>>> saved. That doesn't even meet the road-to-bankruptcy Keynesian "dollar
>>>>> multiplication" factors criteria.
>>>>
>>>> Keynesian was a fraud. Just an excuse for governmetn to let common
>>>> sense go to the wind.
>>>>
>>>> Never seen anyone debt-spend their way out of debt to prosperity. Seen
>>>> it dig deeper holes though.
>>>
>>> You mean Keynes.
>>
>> Yep, but close enough. The theory of his is seriously flawed in
>> several repects. The big one, it didn't factor in so much government
>> debt and the ability to pay for that debt.
>>
>>> You may have missed my point, which was they often justify dumping more
>>> money to save a job than the job is worth by saying that every dollar
>>> spent means 7 or 8 (or whatever their b.s. number of the month is)
>>> dollars spent in the economy - IOW - they say you can justify saving a
>>> $20k job by borrowing $150 to save it.
>>
>> If you were 1000% for sure, sure enough to litterally put your liver,
>> kidneys and heart on the bet that it would permanently solve the
>> problem forever... I might be swayed. But it isn't realistic and the
>> ROI isn't there in the near term or long term.
>
> I assume you mean the generic "you" there and not me personally. But to
> be sure, I don't drink Keynesian kool-aid - I agree with you that it is
> fraudulent philosophy but is unfortunately how many of our political
> class and the voting public think because it's presented in public
> forums and in our schools as if it were a law of nature whether they
> know what it's called or not.

I mean anyone personally that thinks GM bailout was good. There are so
many economic reasons why GM should have been liquidated it isn't funny.
Now you have a giant leach sucking hard with people saddled with the debt.

Someone would have bought GM, fired management and union and cleaned up
GM by now. In fact, they would probably be making money and hiring big
time by now. Get a 20 year no-union BS and some rich cats like Warren
would have paid $30 billion for GM too.

And most likely a decades of a lower standard of living as the debts
consume wealth. As all the debt, 30% more debt will be added under
Obama in just 2 years. That isn't going to be cheap.

--
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[Björn Helgason]

On 16 mar, 15:28, "Tom" <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Björn Helgason" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4c5a4a89-3ab2-47ea-8c58-***@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 16 mar, 00:40, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>
> >> > On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net>  wrote:
> >> >> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
> >> >>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>
> >> >>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>
> >> >>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>
> >> >>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment  was similar to
> >> >>> Detroit.
>
> >> >>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of
> >> >>> this
> >> >>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
> >> >>> never became an issue.
>
> >> >>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>
> >> >>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
> >> >>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
> >> >>> different.
>
> >> >> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
> >> >> freedom.  The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten
> >> >> up
> >> >> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
> >> >> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
> >> >> huge factor in their economic demise.
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Bill Putney
> >> >> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> >> >> address with the letter 'x')
>
> >> > What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
> >> > is doing something about the situation.
> >> > The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
> >> > of unemployment is high there.
> >> > The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
> >> > unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
> >> > same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
> >> > you do not need to do anything.
> >> > They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>
> >> > In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
> >> > and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
> >> > The problems keep increasing.
>
> >> > Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
> >> > get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>
> >> > So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
> >> > is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>
> >> > Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
> >> > everything and then they were abandoned.
>
> >> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
> >> issues.  But it does start with a good edication.
>
> >> Germany is also in financial trouble.  Don't kid yourself.
> >> --
> >> --------------
> >> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>
> > It sure was a heavy burden to take over the ruins after the communism
> > and stupid management.
> > Interestingly enough the same can be said of the failed communism and
> > stupidity of both East Germany and GM.
> > The difference is how the failure is treated.
> > For 20 years Germany is bringing up a new generation of people and is
> > getting back on its feed.
> > In Detroit the schools are closed and what is growing up is an area
> > know mostly for burnt down house, derelict ruins and drugrelated
> > generations of uneducated slums.
> > The communists left a less bad legacy than GM.
>
> now that's a stretch GM brought down detroit , and the communists are better
> than GM. you either live in the wrong
> country or your world is awful dim.

GM brought in a lot of people to Detroit.
The people did not get any skills in anything but a specialized task
related to making cars like robots.
Then GM moved away and the people were left with no education, no
schools, no future.

[Canuck57]

On 18/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
> On 16 mar, 15:28, "Tom"<***@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "Björn Helgason"<***@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:4c5a4a89-3ab2-47ea-8c58-***@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 16 mar, 00:40, Canuck57<***@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> On 15/03/2010 4:35 AM, Björn Helgason wrote:
>>
>>>>> On 15 mar, 10:15, Bill Putney<***@kinez.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Bj rn Helgason wrote:
>>>>>>> Compare how differently Germany and US treat similar situation.
>>
>>>>>>> Twenty years ago West Germany swallowed all of East Germany.
>>
>>>>>>> For the sake of the argument lets compare Berlin and Detroit.
>>
>>>>>>> All of East Germany was bankrupt and the unemployment was similar to
>>>>>>> Detroit.
>>
>>>>>>> All of united Germany has been struggling for 20 years because of
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> unification but it has been steadily building up and the criminality
>>>>>>> never became an issue.
>>
>>>>>>> Compared to Detroit there has hardly been any problem at all.
>>
>>>>>>> Both Berlin and of course all of East Germany was a much bigger issue
>>>>>>> than Detroit and GM but how things are treated is completely
>>>>>>> different.
>>
>>>>>> Because the people of East Germany learned the hard way to cherish
>>>>>> freedom. The politics and culture in Detroit have been totally eaten
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> with far left victim/entitlement mentality, which, while certainly the
>>>>>> decline in the auto industry was more than a small factor, was also a
>>>>>> huge factor in their economic demise.
>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Bill Putney
>>>>>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>>>>> address with the letter 'x')
>>
>>>>> What I think is a general difference is that the government in Germany
>>>>> is doing something about the situation.
>>>>> The people of old east Germany still do not do very much and the level
>>>>> of unemployment is high there.
>>>>> The government in Germany has made sure that the schools are good and
>>>>> unemployment benefits are good so the next generation is not under the
>>>>> same illusions as the older generation growing up under communism that
>>>>> you do not need to do anything.
>>>>> They are allowed to grow old and stay in relative good living.
>>
>>>>> In Detroit the first things to happen is that schools are burnt down
>>>>> and destoyed and lawlessness is rampant.
>>>>> The problems keep increasing.
>>
>>>>> Uneducated people are always a problem and dangerous if they do not
>>>>> get an option to do something and can not improve their situation.
>>
>>>>> So east germany is improving while detroit is getting worse and that
>>>>> is clearly the difference in policies by the government.
>>
>>>>> Both started out the same with a governing body that took care of
>>>>> everything and then they were abandoned.
>>
>>>> It can take at least a generation to fix Detroit and east Germany social
>>>> issues. But it does start with a good edication.
>>
>>>> Germany is also in financial trouble. Don't kid yourself.
>>>> --
>>>> --------------
>>>> Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.
>>
>>> It sure was a heavy burden to take over the ruins after the communism
>>> and stupid management.
>>> Interestingly enough the same can be said of the failed communism and
>>> stupidity of both East Germany and GM.
>>> The difference is how the failure is treated.
>>> For 20 years Germany is bringing up a new generation of people and is
>>> getting back on its feed.
>>> In Detroit the schools are closed and what is growing up is an area
>>> know mostly for burnt down house, derelict ruins and drugrelated
>>> generations of uneducated slums.
>>> The communists left a less bad legacy than GM.
>>
>> now that's a stretch GM brought down detroit , and the communists are better
>> than GM. you either live in the wrong
>> country or your world is awful dim.
>
> GM brought in a lot of people to Detroit.
> The people did not get any skills in anything but a specialized task
> related to making cars like robots.
> Then GM moved away and the people were left with no education, no
> schools, no future.

They milked GM for what it was worth. Literally.

--
--------------
Politicians don't provide anything, the tax payers do.

[g***@gmail.com]

finally gone bust like GM

Very similar reasons

[Canuck57]

Yep, the credit ran out, productive people have left, no one left to pay
for union and politician tax greed.

It was inevitable as Detroit has been on this path for 5 decades, and
reality just caught up to the debt-statism types.

With the numbers of companies, cities and states that are bankrupt, I am
just waiting for the 2008 like crash. As Obama/Bernanke can't keep
electronically counterfeiting no value money forever.

Canada is no different, Ontario, Quebec, PEI, BC, Winnipeg, Toronto and
more all heading towards default.

But hey, politicians love pushing bailout corruption. Tax people that
often have no pensions, have lower wages and cut their government
benefits for noisy greedy politicians ad unions. Its ll about
corruptiona nd greed gone mad.

Answer here is Detroit workers get their wages and benefits hacked, you
lay off all waste and run the city like a business. But first, you have
to fire, run off or get rid of the rotten corrupt bas-ards running the show.

Even cut the pensions of the last 50 years as the corrupt collecting
pensions they never paid for deserve no breaks. Its high time the
governments take the pain the productive people have to deal with.

Or just fire the entire city at once with a giant foreclosure and
rebuild it completely. But this time limit the voting to people who pay
for it, and not let a majority who think governemtn money is free out
run the productive people.

Reality just caught up with Detroit. Coming to a Canadian city near you
as bailouts and transfers reward dysfunctional behavior and we love
taxing the crap out of Candioans for dysfunction and government bloat.

A good movie to watch is "Idiocracy". When I watched it I thought it
was a stupid movie but then I got the hidden message. If you keep
rewarding idiocracy and corruption with bailouts, in the end that is all
you will have, idiocracy.

On 20/07/2013 1:33 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> finally gone bust like GM
>
> Very similar reasons
>


--
Liberal-socialism is a great idea so long as the credit is good and
other people pay for it. When the credit runs out and those that pay
for it leave, they can all share having nothing but debt and discontentment.

[g***@gmail.com]

problems are many

too spead out

only one industry

lots of corruption

going downhill for decades

too reliant on cars

it is difficult to see detroit coming back

it is worth studying for others to learn from the mistakes

we are slowly finding out that traveling in single big expensive combustion engine cars is not the way to go

we should have found that out a long time ago but a lot of people have not accepted it yet

[Ashton Crusher]

On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 00:29:44 -0700 (PDT), ***@gmail.com wrote:

>problems are many
>
>too spead out
>
>only one industry
>
>lots of corruption
>
>going downhill for decades
>
>too reliant on cars

BS

>
>it is difficult to see detroit coming back
>
>it is worth studying for others to learn from the mistakes
>
>we are slowly finding out that traveling in single big expensive combustion engine cars is not the way to go

More BS. Cars are a much more efficient way to travel. The only
reason "they are not the way to go" is when a city gets too big that
it's no longer livable. If you want to live in that kind of city you
are welcome to but the cost per trip will be HIGHER in that mass
transit and the TOTAL trip will take longer. You won't see the higher
cost most of the time because OTHERS are paying for at least half of
the operating cost and almost all of the construction cost. With a
car you pay for your own car and almost all the operating cost.

>
>we should have found that out a long time ago but a lot of people have not accepted it yet

[g***@gmail.com]

many cities have free driverless electrical public transport

google has made driverless cars

gm might rise from the ashes if they started to make such cars

[Ashton Crusher]

On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 00:04:16 -0700 (PDT), ***@gmail.com wrote:

>many cities have free driverless electrical public transport
>
>google has made driverless cars
>
>gm might rise from the ashes if they started to make such cars

The real future IMHO is PodCars. Little 2 people pods that drive
themselves on fixed "guidways", like wires in the ground, for most of
the trip and at the beginning and end the driver does the driving.
electric most likely. Probably 50 years away. Detroit would be a
good place to start on them.

[g***@gmail.com]

they are already available

[Ashton Crusher]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 00:19:11 -0700 (PDT), ***@gmail.com wrote:

>they are already available


In wide scale use over many miles? I've heard of the rentacar systems
but nothing that uses computer controlled end to end driving to major
points and available to anyone with a credit card. What application
are you thinking of and where?

[g***@gmail.com]

there are several places experimenting lending vehicles for short time

often in connection with trains

several driverless railbased vehicles

works like horisontal elevators

compared with other means the numbers are small

bicycles, golfvehicles, inside buildings, some city centers are fully electric as well as most long distance trains

it takes time for the infrastructures to change but it has definitely started and the techniques are available

cities where you can walk, bike and use public transport are more likely to be better and more popular

[Canuck57]

Detroit isn't the only one, I expect it to quickly spread like a cancer.
Lots of governments are bankrupt. Even Washington DC.

Going to get messy. As people realize the city has been running
government and union bloat fraud.

No sympathies.

On 21/07/2013 1:29 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> problems are many
>
> too spead out
>
> only one industry
>
> lots of corruption
>
> going downhill for decades
>
> too reliant on cars
>
> it is difficult to see detroit coming back
>
> it is worth studying for others to learn from the mistakes
>
> we are slowly finding out that traveling in single big expensive combustion engine cars is not the way to go
>
> we should have found that out a long time ago but a lot of people have not accepted it yet
>


--
Liberal-socialism is a great idea so long as the credit is good and
other people pay for it. When the credit runs out and those that pay
for it leave, they can all share having nothing but debt and discontentment.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 12:34:37 -0600, Canuck57 <***@nospam.com>
wrote:

>
>Detroit isn't the only one, I expect it to quickly spread like a cancer.
> Lots of governments are bankrupt. Even Washington DC.
>
>Going to get messy. As people realize the city has been running
>government and union bloat fraud.
>
>No sympathies.

They should cut government services, except, of course, the ones "I"
use.

I have to live on my paycheck, government entities should do the same
and live on their income. You just can't keep raising the tax rate.